Dear FH Friends, Would like to make a report on my progress and experience with
Adobe Illustrator CS3 recently. Like what we are all suppose to do, migrate to
AI and try to live with it if we are to have any future with Adobe.
It started fine, step by step, chapter by chapter, the learning was OK. But as
I get into it more, I realized the very strength of Illustrator is also the
very weakness of the software. If you look into the Layer Window, if you border
and don't get turn off. There are a lot going on in there. The layers are
happening, it has so much stuff in there. Everything you create will appear in
there as either layer or sub-layer depending on what you want. The effects are
highlighter in grey radio button and it correspond to the appearance window.
Allowing you to control each and every elements in your artwork. This sounds
fantastic. Yes, only if you stay on the super safe area without getting your
work into things like, "Group", "Compound Path", "Clipping Mask", "Opacity
Mask" but these are functions we use in our work everyday. The arrangement of
the layers in Illustrator allow certain effects to take place but when these
layers get lost through grouping and ungrouping or get jumble up everything
become very confusing. AI ungrouping function leave many empty layers. It does
not remember its previous layer. This, I find it most disturbing. You have to
start deleting empty layers after that.

Jack,

Just take this as what it is: a friendly observation.

You started this "survey" thread on 4/19, bemoaning the inferiority of AI to
FH; and you're only just now getting around to exploring the basics of AI's
Layers palette?

How do you expect anyone (even those who might be prone to agree with you, let
alone those who don't) to take your hyperbole seriously when it's obvious you
know next to nothing about one of the two things you are comparing?

(That's one of the problemsI have with "woe is me" threads like this.)

Personally, I think it's obviously WAY past time to be begging and peading for
the continuation of FreeHand. That decison has been made. New OS versions have
come out and achieved ubiquity since. People are exploring things like
data-driven graphics and scripting, and are building "intelligent" interactive
illustrations these days. Meanwhile, this thread has now accrued a mere 181
posts, many of which are repeats. (21 of them are yours, completely negating
its validity as even an informal and unscientific "survey.")

Those longtime FH-proficient users who actually *know something* about its
advantages re Illustrator should certainly not let Adobe conveniently "forget"
about those advantages; and should "educate" blissfull AI devotees about the
unarguable interface superiorities--but with credibility based on effort,
accuracy, and truth, not on sloppy first-impression comparisons.

You do your own "cause" a disservice. Those you need to convince most tend to
label FH's strongest defenders as mere cry-babies, mentally grouping them
together with the authors of weak posts like your layers comments.

AI's Layers Palette is not difficult for a proficient FH user to understand.
The main difference is that it simply lists all the individual objects on a
Layer, rather than just the Layers themselves. (And even that is optional.)

For any proficient FH user, understanding that should not even require more
than a few minutes' poking around. The similar treatment of Clipping Masks,
Groups, and Compund Paths within the Layers palette logically follows and
should be just as obvious, those being nothing-new constructs to any FH user.

Simply perusing the documentation should explain the interface of the Layer
target and selection icons. How the target icons relate to AI's Appearance
Palette would be unfamiliar to even proficient FH users who are very new to AI
without a more careful read of the documentation. This, because AI's objects'
properties are still scattered across multiple palettes, like applications
harking back to the 80s, and because AI's Appearance Palette is therefore so
poor an excuse for FH's inspector-based interface.

But one should be *expected* to at least read the documentation before making
blunderbuss comparitive judgements; believe it or not, FH isn't all that
intuitive to newcomers who refuse to read its documentation, either.

Plus, that really has little to do with the actual functionality of the Layers
palette, and the fact that it lists objects--other than the fact that it seems
to provide a workaround for AI's poor selection interface (thus its frequent
praise from AI users who don't understand that FH's better *selection*
interface obviates much of its "indispensibility.")

Nor is AI the only vector program that lists all objects (groups, clipping
paths, etc.) in the layers list. Far from it. (Canvas, for example, does that,
and at least the concept is akin to most drafting software.)

JET

AI devotees are already acting cocky about CS4--as if catching up to a few
features that have been in other programs for 15-20 years is something to crow
about.

I'm relatively spry for 55, and in excellent health. But at its rate of
development, I'll probably be dead before Illustrator ever comes up to speed.
Meaningful improvements are so few and long in coming that AI contuinuously
loses ground in basic drawing functionality.

So far, the features that it has tried to borrow from FH have been half-baked.
Examples:

CS3 finally lets you perform alignments on subselected points. But it fails
miserably to match the same functionality as in FH, because AI still doesn't
know the difference between a path being selected as a whole object, as opposed
to having all its points selected.

CS3 finally added the ability to convert multiple points at once. But it left
out any options controling extension/retraction of handles.

So even when AI does pay a little lip service to FH, that's all it is.

I'm convinced that AI's foundation is just so outdated, and its inefficient
80s-ish so engrained among its users, that there is little to no hope of it
ever becomming the powerful, modern, and elegant drawing program we all want
and need.

It's time to start over. And I'm doubtful that Adobe has the interest.

JET

Actually, JET has a good point -- 182 or 250 posts/petition signatures --
probably wouldnt make adobe reconsider --or look into the save Freehand concept
seriously.

So whats the number? My guess is between 500 to 1000 -- just for Adobe to
take the matter seriously. Perhaps we can build on this momentum -- due to
decent start here of people acknowledging they would pay for an upgrade. I
would personally pay between $250 - $500 (or $500 extra for the suite) -- to
have Freehand in the creative design suite, master collection, etc. -- with a
product definition and strategy -- apart from -- but complementary to
Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash, etc. Maybe CS5 2010?

The Adobe takeover of Macromedia -- like many takeovers -- probably didnt go
deep into the product brand/customer loyalty analyis -- its more about
immediate and big volume about dollars; not about keeping sophisticated
products that helps the careers and livelihoods -- of the few. Hey, I miss
HomeSite as well.

But moving on Im glad this forum exists; if we keep telling friends,
building awareness, maybe even build a few more websites...who knows 1000
signatures with "verbal commitments" may (potentially yield $250k - $500k --
thats seems like room enough for what --- a 2 1/2 to 4 person Adobe team to get
cracking on how best to resurrect Freehand and integrate it into the creative
suite...? At the least -- its a start. Thats enough seed money to start a
business -- should be enough to get Freehand upgraded.

I dont care as much about comparing Freehand to Illustrator -- or even
DreamWeaver to HomeSite for that matter... Im over it. I just want Freehand
back.

thefauve

AI devotees are already acting cocky about CS4--as if catching up to a few
features that have been in other programs for 15-20 years is something to crow
about.

I'm relatively spry for 55, and in excellent health. But at its rate of
development, I'll probably be dead before Illustrator ever comes up to speed.
Meaningful improvements are so few and long in coming that AI contuinuously
loses ground in basic drawing functionality.

So far, the features that it has tried to borrow from FH have been half-baked.
Examples:

CS3 finally lets you perform alignments on subselected points. But it fails
miserably to match the same functionality as in FH, because AI still doesn't
know the difference between a path being selected as a whole object, as opposed
to having all its points selected.

CS3 finally added the ability to convert multiple points at once. But it left
out any options controling extension/retraction of handles.

So even when AI does pay a little lip service to FH, that's all it is.

I'm convinced that AI's foundation is just so outdated, and its inefficient
80s-ish so engrained among its users, that there is little to no hope of it
ever becomming the powerful, modern, and elegant drawing program we all want
and need.

It's time to start over. And I'm doubtful that Adobe has the interest.

JET

Hi JET and all Freehand Users,
I started this threads as a devoted Freehand User. I am 100% behind FH because
I used it for almost 18 years and it has help me in my work and I am able to
feed my family like many who have responded. I am happy that many have show
their sincere commitment and still hope Adobe will Upgrade Freehand. As we are
here requesting Adobe to do something for us, in return I thought it would be
useful to also do something for Adobe. For that I have decided I will have to
use the program that they are asking us to try, AI. I am giving my feed back as
a new user, not as a pro-User. What I experience is my feedback. It may not be
the most accurate assessment of AI but it is a new user experience. Anywhere,
thank you for your comments and feedback. For now we will wait for CS4 to see
what AI is like. For me AI is never FH.
Let me remind all FH users.
If you want Freehand to be Upgraded to the next Level, you have got the step
forward and put your name here. Be counted.
A mountain is not build in a day, let us all do our part, just one stone each,
believe me, you will be surprised.
Thanks
Jack

Hi JET and all Freehand Users,
I started this threads as a devoted Freehand User. I am 100% behind FH because
I used it for almost 18 years and it has help me in my work and I am able to
feed my family like many who have responded. I am happy that many have show
their sincere commitment and still hope Adobe will Upgrade Freehand. As we are
here requesting Adobe to do something for us, in return I thought it would be
useful to also do something for Adobe. For that I have decided I will have to
use the program that they are asking us to try, AI. I am giving my feed back as
a new user, not as a pro-User. What I experience is my feedback. It may not be
the most accurate assessment of AI but it is a new user experience. Anywhere,
thank you for your comments and feedback. For now we will wait for CS4 to see
what AI is like. For me AI is never FH.
Let me remind all FH users.
If you want Freehand to be Upgraded to the next Level, you have got the step
forward and put your name here. Be counted.
A mountain is not build in a day, let us all do our part, just one stone each,
believe me, you will be surprised.
Thanks
Jack

I would rather try and find an ol' version of MacDraw II -- whose curve/spline
formula from end point to mid-point to end point -- was the best there was --
and Freehand is the closest thing to it. Everyone elses curve formula is
cubic. Sums up Illustrator for me.

I would buy an upgrade the minute it was released.

I would buy an upgrade the minute it was released.