Would be nice if Apple brought out a version of an up to date Freehand?

Dear FH Friends, Would like to make a report on my progress and experience with
Adobe Illustrator CS3 recently. Like what we are all suppose to do, migrate to
AI and try to live with it if we are to have any future with Adobe.
It started fine, step by step, chapter by chapter, the learning was OK. But as
I get into it more, I realized the very strength of Illustrator is also the
very weakness of the software. If you look into the Layer Window, if you border
and don't get turn off. There are a lot going on in there. The layers are
happening, it has so much stuff in there. Everything you create will appear in
there as either layer or sub-layer depending on what you want. The effects are
highlighter in grey radio button and it correspond to the appearance window.
Allowing you to control each and every elements in your artwork. This sounds
fantastic. Yes, only if you stay on the super safe area without getting your
work into things like, "Group", "Compound Path", "Clipping Mask", "Opacity
Mask" but these are functions we use in our work everyday. The arrangement of
the layers in Illustrator allow certain effects to take place but when these
layers get lost through grouping and ungrouping or get jumble up everything
become very confusing. AI ungrouping function leave many empty layers. It does
not remember its previous layer. This, I find it most disturbing. You have to
start deleting empty layers after that.

Jack,

Just take this as what it is: a friendly observation.

You started this "survey" thread on 4/19, bemoaning the inferiority of AI to
FH; and you're only just now getting around to exploring the basics of AI's
Layers palette?

How do you expect anyone (even those who might be prone to agree with you, let
alone those who don't) to take your hyperbole seriously when it's obvious you
know next to nothing about one of the two things you are comparing?

(That's one of the problemsI have with "woe is me" threads like this.)

Personally, I think it's obviously WAY past time to be begging and peading for
the continuation of FreeHand. That decison has been made. New OS versions have
come out and achieved ubiquity since. People are exploring things like
data-driven graphics and scripting, and are building "intelligent" interactive
illustrations these days. Meanwhile, this thread has now accrued a mere 181
posts, many of which are repeats. (21 of them are yours, completely negating
its validity as even an informal and unscientific "survey.")

Those longtime FH-proficient users who actually *know something* about its
advantages re Illustrator should certainly not let Adobe conveniently "forget"
about those advantages; and should "educate" blissfull AI devotees about the
unarguable interface superiorities--but with credibility based on effort,
accuracy, and truth, not on sloppy first-impression comparisons.

You do your own "cause" a disservice. Those you need to convince most tend to
label FH's strongest defenders as mere cry-babies, mentally grouping them
together with the authors of weak posts like your layers comments.

AI's Layers Palette is not difficult for a proficient FH user to understand.
The main difference is that it simply lists all the individual objects on a
Layer, rather than just the Layers themselves. (And even that is optional.)

For any proficient FH user, understanding that should not even require more
than a few minutes' poking around. The similar treatment of Clipping Masks,
Groups, and Compund Paths within the Layers palette logically follows and
should be just as obvious, those being nothing-new constructs to any FH user.

Simply perusing the documentation should explain the interface of the Layer
target and selection icons. How the target icons relate to AI's Appearance
Palette would be unfamiliar to even proficient FH users who are very new to AI
without a more careful read of the documentation. This, because AI's objects'
properties are still scattered across multiple palettes, like applications
harking back to the 80s, and because AI's Appearance Palette is therefore so
poor an excuse for FH's inspector-based interface.

But one should be *expected* to at least read the documentation before making
blunderbuss comparitive judgements; believe it or not, FH isn't all that
intuitive to newcomers who refuse to read its documentation, either.

Plus, that really has little to do with the actual functionality of the Layers
palette, and the fact that it lists objects--other than the fact that it seems
to provide a workaround for AI's poor selection interface (thus its frequent
praise from AI users who don't understand that FH's better *selection*
interface obviates much of its "indispensibility.")

Nor is AI the only vector program that lists all objects (groups, clipping
paths, etc.) in the layers list. Far from it. (Canvas, for example, does that,
and at least the concept is akin to most drafting software.)

JET

Actually, JET has a good point -- 182 or 250 posts/petition signatures --
probably wouldnt make adobe reconsider --or look into the save Freehand concept
seriously.

So whats the number? My guess is between 500 to 1000 -- just for Adobe to
take the matter seriously. Perhaps we can build on this momentum -- due to
decent start here of people acknowledging they would pay for an upgrade. I
would personally pay between $250 - $500 (or $500 extra for the suite) -- to
have Freehand in the creative design suite, master collection, etc. -- with a
product definition and strategy -- apart from -- but complementary to
Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash, etc. Maybe CS5 2010?

The Adobe takeover of Macromedia -- like many takeovers -- probably didnt go
deep into the product brand/customer loyalty analyis -- its more about
immediate and big volume about dollars; not about keeping sophisticated
products that helps the careers and livelihoods -- of the few. Hey, I miss
HomeSite as well.

But moving on Im glad this forum exists; if we keep telling friends,
building awareness, maybe even build a few more websites...who knows 1000
signatures with "verbal commitments" may (potentially yield $250k - $500k --
thats seems like room enough for what --- a 2 1/2 to 4 person Adobe team to get
cracking on how best to resurrect Freehand and integrate it into the creative
suite...? At the least -- its a start. Thats enough seed money to start a
business -- should be enough to get Freehand upgraded.

I dont care as much about comparing Freehand to Illustrator -- or even
DreamWeaver to HomeSite for that matter... Im over it. I just want Freehand
back.

thefauve

Yes I will pay for an upgrade, if they make it Intel native, they don't
have to do anything else. It's still much easier to use and can do
things that Illustrator baulks at.

FreeHand users of the world UNITE!


On 2008-04-19 19:26:16 +0100, "Jack PNG" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> said:

> Dear FreeHand User all over the world,
> To upgrade Freehand MX (The world most user friendly vector software).
> We need numbers, the shareholders needs to know how much is the return if
> Adobe is going to upgarde FreeHand MX.
> If FreeHand Users all over the world puts his/her name on this list that they
> will pay for an upgrade as soon as it is available. If the numbers is in
> millions. Adobe shareholders may reconsider their decision.
> Let us all show our genuine interest. Just type "Yes, I will upgrade my
> FreeHand MX with Adobe"
> Keep our fingers cross.
>
> FreeHand User Since 1990
> Jack Png

Yeah, but FreeHand does things that Illustrator can't!

On 2008-07-22 16:33:10 +0100, "SpenBeck" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> said:

> A simple way to make all freehand user move to illustrator would be to make all
> the commands customisable, so freehand users could make illustrator behave like
> freehand (user friendly).
>
> Maybe a 'default freehand actions' in preferences.
>
> Problem solved!

No, you dont. It is running under emulation on Intel Macs. Still faster
than native Illustrator though!

On 2008-04-29 21:39:37 +0100, "John Gallagher"
<webforumsuser@macromedia.com> said:

> Boy! don't I look stoopid?

I bet you use a PC. Or work for Adobe. You haven't got a clue.

On 2008-04-30 01:08:55 +0100, "JETLT" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> said:

>> I would like to point out one small but important thing. Draw a text block in
> illustrator, type some text, then try moving the text block with your pointer
> tool. It will move if you point to the text baseline or the perimeter of the
> text block but if you point anywhere inside the text block, it will not move.
>
> Go to Edit>Preferences>Type and turn off the Type Object Selection By Path
> Only option.
>
> Jack, you do your own cause more damage than good when you don't check your
> facts. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes Illustrator devotees think
> FreeHand users are merely whining because they are too lazy to learn another
> program that is "no better than Illustrator."
>
> Now let me give you one: In FreeHand, select an object. Now move it
> numerically, not in terms of vertical and horizontal, but in terms of direction
> and distance.
>
> Now wouldn't you say that functionality is pretty dang basic?
>
> Look: In alot of important and basic ways, FreeHand is a better vector drawing
> interface than Illustrator ever will be. But the ugly truth is, that's not
> really saying much.
>
> "FreeHand Addict"? You guys are addicted to mediocrity. (Never mind that AI
> "addicts" are addicted to worse.) "Give me FreeHand or give me death"? Give me
> a break. "Monopoly"? Look up the meaning. If this were an illegal monopoly the
> FTC would be all over it.
>
> If you can't stand Illustrator, give Corel or Canvas a go. Reward them for
> also being better than Illustrator, and for surviving despite its market share.
> Moreover, do your homework. Make LEGITIMATE and SUBSTANTIVE comparisons between
> FH and AI, so that Adobe (and more importantly, Illustrator users) will
> understand that the complaints are based on meaningful fact, not mere
> habituated favoritism.
>
> And finally: Post those comparisons where they can make a difference. You guys
> are just preaching to the choir here. " Millions"? Where do you get that
> figure? I count 18 different responders in 13 days. Criminy, there's more
> interest than that in some of the most mundane single threads in the
> Illustrator forums.
>
> JET

Being part of the cs3 beta I can say I don't think Freehand will be coming
back. There were a lot of freehand users in there giving ideas and the Adobe
team is listening. You just can't say this feature sucks in AI. They want to
know why you think it sucks and how can it be improved in detail. Freehand
users request are not the only ones they are getting hit with. You have folks
requesting features from other apps like Flash, indesign, draw, photoshop ect.
Also people are coming up with new ideas. So all your fav features from
freehand are not gonna show up in AI anytime soon. 1 or 2 features might make
it in each upgrade if enough people request it. I still wanna know why AI only
has 2 options for gradients compared to photoshop..lol. That request was put on
hold for future updates.

AI devotees are already acting cocky about CS4--as if catching up to a few
features that have been in other programs for 15-20 years is something to crow
about.

I'm relatively spry for 55, and in excellent health. But at its rate of
development, I'll probably be dead before Illustrator ever comes up to speed.
Meaningful improvements are so few and long in coming that AI contuinuously
loses ground in basic drawing functionality.

So far, the features that it has tried to borrow from FH have been half-baked.
Examples:

CS3 finally lets you perform alignments on subselected points. But it fails
miserably to match the same functionality as in FH, because AI still doesn't
know the difference between a path being selected as a whole object, as opposed
to having all its points selected.

CS3 finally added the ability to convert multiple points at once. But it left
out any options controling extension/retraction of handles.

So even when AI does pay a little lip service to FH, that's all it is.

I'm convinced that AI's foundation is just so outdated, and its inefficient
80s-ish so engrained among its users, that there is little to no hope of it
ever becomming the powerful, modern, and elegant drawing program we all want
and need.

It's time to start over. And I'm doubtful that Adobe has the interest.

JET